SherryRichard wrote:

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...... Now here is something you might want to mull over. Technology is at the point that it will, I believe, be impossible to control. Soon there will be a copy machine that can actually make things like "pills." I'm not a techie so I don't understand all of this but in talking about this machine it said that if you input the ingrediences that you want to go into the pill, this copy machine will produce it. They can probably make parts of a weapon from a CNC machine; if they can produce products from a copy machine just think what a CNC machine could do. The guy in charge of google tech says that within 10 years google will be able to anticipate what you need before you ask for it based on the data it has stored about you. Glenn Beck calls him probably the most intelligent man on the planet and the most dangerous!!!

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 The technology you are talking about is already here and rapidly advancing. It's called 3D printing. All you need to do is draw it on a computer and "print" it out.

-- Edited by Izzy Ryder on Saturday 19th of January 2013 04:57:39 PM

Sherry, once again I will point you to completely secularized, First World societies such as Australia, Canada, and Europe.  All with very strict gun control (not gun BANS) and all with signifigantly less gun violence than in the US.  I call the "they'll make bombs" argument a strawman because in societies like AUS, CAN, and EUR, where gun access in tightly controlled, there are NO mass killings using bombs.  Their youth is just as alienated and they spend just as much time in front of video games.  Their sociopathic freaks like attention as well.  When a sociopathic freak in Norway wanted to commit a mass killing, he used a gun, not a bomb.  It is a lot harder to make and transport the size of bomb that will give you dozens of casulties than pulling a trigger.  Ease of use matters.  Timothy McVeigh did not learn to make a carbomb from the internet or a book.  He had military training, not something the average narsacisitic 20-25 year old in the States has. 

 

People who think they have the right to own as many and any kind of gun they want always put up the China, Russia, Nazi Germany bogeyman. Automatic weapons are the only thing saving us from becoming a totalitarian tyrrany like Russia, etc, etc, etc.   They always want to compare apples to oranges, the US and China, than apples to apples, the US and Europe.  Once again, I reiterate-  the United States government is capable of lauching a drone from Washington that will snake its way up the ass of a terrorist in Pakistan.  Do we really think semi-automatics and automatics are going to save us from a government with that kind of weaponary at its fingertips?  That is not a rhetorical question.  This claim that gun ownership in the States prevents the government from going rouge has a lot of holes in it.  Guns are useful and serve multiple purposes, but the idea that a person who is used to shooting stationary targets is going to be able to take down a suicidal shooter with body armor who is MOVING and with people in the crossfire is not backed up by the cops and the one man with military sniper training that I know.   

 

Gun control does keep mass casualty figures down.  The NRA needs to stop acting like we are talking about prying weapons out of people's cold, dead hands.  Obama is not rounding up people's guns, and it would be impossible to round up everyone's guns.  What pisses the NRA off is that people are now demanding that gun owners be held as responsible for their guns as they are for their cars and homes.   

 

That technology is interesting but in addition to the metal in making a gun you need to be able to make bullets.  I'm not convinced we will be making homemade guns in 10 years.  Homemade pills is even less likely because the raw ingredients are not something the average person can secure and synthesize.  Many of our medicines have multiple "cooking steps".  It's not like a cake where you mix ingredients and bake.  I have been in medical manufacturing, amatuers cannot do it. 

-- Edited by Maribegood on Saturday 19th of January 2013 09:31:01 PM

Maribegood wrote:

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Sherry, once again I will point you to completely secularized, First World societies such as Australia, Canada, and Europe.  All with very strict gun control (not gun BANS) and all with signifigantly less gun violence than in the US.  I call the "they'll make bombs" argument a strawman because in societies like AUS, CAN, and EUR, where gun access in tightly controlled, there are NO mass killings using bombs.  Their youth is just as alienated and they spend just as much time in front of video games.  Their sociopathic freaks like attention as well.  When a sociopathic freak in Norway wanted to commit a mass killing, he used a gun, not a bomb.  It is a lot harder to make and transport the size of bomb that will give you dozens of casulties than pulling a trigger.  Ease of use matters.  Timothy McVeigh did not learn to make a carbomb from the internet or a book.  He had military training, not something the average narsacisitic 20-25 year old in the States has. 

 

People who think they have the right to own as many and any kind of gun they want always put up the China, Russia, Nazi Germany bogeyman. Automatic weapons are the only thing saving us from becoming a totalitarian tyrrany like Russia, etc, etc, etc.   They always want to compare apples to oranges, the US and China, than apples to apples, the US and Europe.  Once again, I reiterate-  the United States government is capable of lauching a drone from Washington that will snake its way up the ass of a terrorist in Pakistan.  Do we really think semi-automatics and automatics are going to save us from a government with that kind of weaponary at its fingertips?  That is not a rhetorical question.  This claim that gun ownership in the States prevents the government from going rouge has a lot of holes in it.  Guns are useful and serve multiple purposes, but the idea that a person who is used to shooting stationary targets is going to be able to take down a suicidal shooter with body armor who is MOVING and with people in the crossfire is not backed up by the cops and the one man with military sniper training that I know.   

 

Gun control does keep mass casualty figures down.  The NRA needs to stop acting like we are talking about prying weapons out of people's cold, dead hands.  Obama is not rounding up people's guns, and it would be impossible to round up everyone's guns.  What pisses the NRA off is that people are now demanding that gun owners be held as responsible for their guns as they are for their cars and homes.   

 

That technology is interesting but in addition to the metal in making a gun you need to be able to make bullets.  I'm not convinced we will be making homemade guns in 10 years.  Homemade pills is even less likely because the raw ingredients are not something the average person can secure and synthesize.  Many of our medicines have multiple "cooking steps".  It's not like a cake where you mix ingredients and bake.  I have been in medical manufacturing, amatuers cannot do it. 

-- Edited by Maribegood on Saturday 19th of January 2013 09:31:01 PM

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 like x 1000 well said 

The problem is the anti-gun people and the media apparently don't know the difference between a semi-automatic weapon where you have to pull the trigger every time a shot is fired and an "attack weapon" that is a automatic where you just pull the trigger all the way back and the weapon keeps shooting until the ammunition is all gone.

Today I saw a picture of a boar attacking a man (the ranches/farms in Texas have problems with these boars) and the man had to shoot the boar several times before he killed him. Seven rounds wouldn't be enough!!! We have a problem with people who have no personal knowledge about certain topics trying to give their opinion. IMO they are dangerous!

I've heard David Barton talk about his book and he's very concerned that people have attacked him. He puts footnotes in his books so people can look to see where he got the information in his books; and if he can find where he made a mistake he will acknowledge it and make corrections. The book will be back out; probably addressing the people's "concerns." Mercury Ink I believe will put the book out.

The thing is I have actually studied American History, not the rewritten history, but the same history my mother was taught in school and the same history my dad read since he was self taught having to quit school and go to work at 9 because he had to support his mother after his dad deserted the family.

In most of the things I have read by David Barton they pretty much followed what I had already learned. Barton has picked up a lot of original documents, letters and such that are not housed in the different founders libraries.

There is a break that is occurring in this country that I think is very serious. People who were considered conservative are moving to the left and Christians and churches are trying to change God's word. The bible says God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I have an opinion why this is happening but I won't bore you guys with it; instead I'll just say keep an eye on the Middle East.

Sherry, I'll "have your back" on this one....

 

While maybe not "Mayberryesque", prior to around 1968, this country, and most of the "Democratized" world was far from what is being portrayed as fact in today's curriculum, and documentaries. I think the assassinations of John, Robert, and Martin soured, if not ruined this country. The specific reasoning is unknown to me, however, I think much of our downward progression in the way that we treat each other somehow stems from that five year period between 1963 and 1968. Was life ideal prior to those years??, HELL NO!, it was literal hell (way back when) to be a black person; in-fact, my grandmother was one of only two white physicians who would treat blacks in other than an emergency situation (until the Johnson Administration remedied that travesty). In fact, one of our neighbors once commented to my father that "Charlie, you had damn site better put a shltload of chlorine in that pool after what I saw yesterday". He was referring to the fact that four of my mother's family's friends, who happened to be black, attended a picnic which my (maternal) grandparents and aunts hosted for those who helped my grandfather install a new roof on his garage.

That neighbor never stepped foot on our property again, however, his children, and my friends continued to swim in that "infested" pool well into my college years.

People dressed better then, greeted each other with courtesy; it was always protocol for children to use "Mister, Miss, and Missuses" when speaking to an adult. There was an unwritten rule in most homes that two nights per week were "company nights", when you would ether visit someone, or entertain somebody at your home. How damn frequently does that happen today. We are no longer capable of complex, or even simple socialization; and this damn thing that I type upon as we speak has made things far worse.

We may laugh at the Amish, Mennonites, Hutterites, Quakers, and those who spurn technology, but I am convinced that they understand more of the true meaning of life than we do, and that is something which we desperately need to recover, or we are doomed as a civil society.

Anita I have lived in a VERY different time in this country; one that if you were allowed to look into the past you wouldn't even recognize this Country. I have watched it change and have been unable to do anything about it. I've explained it but very few can comprehend it. My boss once told me by the nature of where I worked I had seen too much of the evil in people. I had never thought about it before he mentioned it but he was right. I know exactly how bad people can be...

One of the big changes is that people used to be more honorable. Their handshake meant their honor and they would do everything possible to keep their word. In other words their reputation was at stake! Of course there is always people who are deceitful and this was no different when I was young but in most cases OUR MEDIA or some group would "front them off." No; rewriting history started in the last quarter of the last century. I say that because I did know what my kids were being taught in school. I took my role as a parent very seriously. Nowadays telling outright lies is OK; if it weren't, our leaders would't be lying and lying wouldn't be tolerated by anybody who could attract an audience!!!

Look I don't care if you believe me. I'm telling you I lived then and this is how we lived back then. But in studying history it has become very clear to me that bad decisions result in bad consequences; and no matter how many times you try it never causes a different result. For your information it hasn't been so long ago that it was understood that Canada didn't need an army like ours because America would protect her. That was a promise that has been kept. However, people don't keep their promises anymore. And Europe is falling apart financially as the rest of the world is. Additionally, not to long ago several cities in France were burned by marauding groups of people.

Coxie, yes there are things that can be done about this. Prior to the last quarter of last century it was a rare occasion for mass shootings; fact is there weren't any incidents noted. A lot of it had to do with what was tolerated, the "R" rated movies would have never found their way to the regular movie theaters. I have never played these games except when my youngest grandson would beg me to help him get out of a spot and since he was 5 years old he played appropriate age games with no violence. I do have grandsons who play war games; my oldest has quite a reputation according to another grandson. My oldest grandson is an old soul and he has never shown any mental deficiecies. However, I have heard an millitary expert who taught the same type of techniques to new recruits because of their reluctance to take a life say that allowing kids who have not developed enough maturity to constantly play these games is dangerous. They live in an imaginary environment where killing is the goal and if they get stuck and can't get out or they are at the end of the game they actually kill themselves to stop the game!!!! I was astounded when I heard this. One of the things I would do is not allow kids to play these games. After gaining too many gray hairs I discovered a very easy way to encourage my kids to not get into trouble. Back then the problem was with drugs.

I controlled their environment. I encouraged them to have self respect and they should never fall so low as to hang out with the druggies. They benefited if they went along with the program; and lost benefits if they didn't. It actually works if you give clear rules and back up your words with action. I didn't put a hand on the kids or my youngest grandson who I babysat a good bit of the time. I gave a lot of myself. Raising kids shouldn't be a back burner situation. Too many parents raise their kids as they were raised without supervision and too much freedom. We need to give the freedom and the benefits to those who have proved they can handle it. How did they turn out. Pretty darn good and except for one of my daughters they were hands on parents! And their kids are pretty darn good! Since I'm closest to my youngest daughter's kids they are more closer to me. Howevwer, all of my grandkids make sure to hug me when I enter their presence and when I leave.

Based on our government's actions I'm convinced about everything they do is about controlling us or making us dependant on them I don't believe our government has our best interest at heart. You will notice that the president and every one of Congress as an armed security team assigned to them. A good many people in the entertainment industy has armed body details or an armed bodyguard. Why is it not reasonable for citizens to have weapons. And why does the amount of guns people have increase their danger level? A lot of people collect guns... And I'm not advocating they have automatic weapons but if you go out to take down a mountain lion who is killing your cattle or some similar scenario you might need a backup gun or a lot of ammunition because they don't look to die easily. Also people are nervous because of the situation which sometimes can affect their aim. I saw a lion running head on to a man. The man was shooting at him and the lion knocked him over and the man and other people were shooting at the lion who finally ran off wounded. You don't want a wounded wild animal running around. I also saw a man draw from his holster (it was specially made), shoot off as many rounds as the revolver could hold, rearm and shoot again all within four and one half (4 1/2) seconds. That takes practice, a lot of it but what do you think they kids are doing. They seem to go for head shoots; not center mass!

And whoever mentioned these people wearing armor and moving around; I would think that 7 rounds wouldn't be enough to bring them down. I'd rather have a chance at being armed or be in the company of armed individuals than just being shot without even trying.

Also if you want all these guns banned do you really think they will get rid of them all? I know the criminal element used to make guns. And "in the old days" they made ammunition; and some people still do it. It took 45 minutes for the police to show up at our house in Riverside. We were minutes away from a police station. If the guy had been armed and we had not woke up and ran him off, what were we supposed to do? Try to dodge the bullets?

I like Reagan as a president but I didn't like him as a governor. He shut down most of the psych hospitals. And our society needs to realize that there are some people who don't deserve to walk free because they are dangerous!!! I believe it is sad that a person would need to be locked up for life because of a defiency within them but if you want society to be safe; and I do, then that is necessary. There are crimes that result in life without parole. These people will stay in prison for life because they are too dangerous.

Joseph, all my kids grew up saying Yes/No Sir and Yes/No Mam to my ex and I and to all adults. That wasn't my rule it was my ex's rule because that was the way he was raised in the South. I lived in Arkansas until I was about 8 years old; but my parents raised me differently and didn't require I guess you could say titles. However, my brother and I was taught to respect our elders by how we treated them.

We came to California and I guess there was discrimination here but I wasn't around it. As I've said, I grew up with a half and half community; Hispanic and white. In my community there were no blacks; although there were blacks in other areas. The one incident where a white guy in our high school kid said something negative about our Hispanic quarterback. It looked like to me that our entire high school met in the street in front of the high school; the white kids mostly took the Hispanics' side. I knew the white kid and he was prone to speak before he thought. They didn't call the cops. The male teachers came out the front door of the high school in a group; led by our History teacher who was retired Army Intelligence. They moved into the middle of the group where the combatants stood and stopped the thing while the shouting was going on!!! Can you see that happening in our schools today?

I grew up less than an hour from the Pacific Ocean. One day my friends and I went to the beach and the boyfriend of one of the girls drove. Coming back his car broke down in Watts; a black neighborhood. We walked for probably a mile in Watts and it was dark by then. Not one person accosted us until we got to a place where Eddie could get some help. I wouldn't even go down the street where I lived in Highland Park now let alone Watts!!!!

The thing was the only people I knew that took drugs were musicians; and only a few of them. We didn't take drugs. The worst thing we could do is smoke cigarettes. I agree with Joseph about "Mayberryesque" but my family life could probably be equated to Ozzie and Harriet or the show with the Beaver. The trouble we got into was minute to what it is now. The only difference with those shows is they were comedies but the way the people lived were not that far off.

One thing that is not well known is that not all blacks were living in proverty. There was a black middle class and one woman who made beauty cream for women became a millionaire. She has a fasinating story. Frankly I'm of the school that believes to teach people to fish rather than rely on the government to feed them. People on welfare barely make enough to survive. And since there were plenty of blacks who worked for the Department of Corrections I had many black friends. And it is my experience there are lazy and work motivated blacks just as there are lazy and work motivated whites and other ethnic groups.

And let me tell you about the law in California that says if words come out of your mouth that make a person believe you are thinking of suicide they can report you and you will end up in a psych ward for at least 72 hours. I know of two people who ended up in psych wards. One was a correctional officer I worked with whose daughter died; she was an only child. In the hospital he leaned over her body and stated to those supporting him that he didn't know how he was going to carry on. They put him in the psych ward. My boss was there and he was an executive officer of the prison. He couldn't get him out. My boss ended up calling the Chief Medical Officer who eventually came down and got him out. Everybody knew he was just expressing grief over the loss of his daughter. The other person wasn't so lucky. He ended up spending more than the 72 hours and then had to go through out-patient treatment. A bar tender turned him in because he was telling him the story of his wife leaving him after 40 something years.

You know we did things in my day that would get our parents locked up today. My kids did worse things but I didn't know about them until they were grown! But we didn't tie down kids in car seats and just let them scream bloddy murder, we didn't even have seat belts. I rode the public bus by myself to jr high school and to high school. It isn't really safe to do that now. You see we were warned against men trying to give us candy and go with them but we didn't have a whole bunch of pedophiles on the streets. They were in hospitals for the criminally insane. We didn't have kids being murdered at the rate that is going on today; and I'm not talking about mass shootings. We didn't have that in my day either. You see people knew that you can't save people from everything; there is always something even if it is a freak accident. You take away their ability to learn to take care of themselves. Our missteps themselves taught us not to do it again; or you could say we learned from our mistakes. The law didn't try to make criminals of parents when bad things happened unless the parents were guilty of doing the bad things. The parents were the ones that would deal with the trauma all their lives; the government would goes on to the next case never knowing the mess they caused because it did not affect them. And I've read some case histories that would make you sick to your stomach!!! But that was when I was grown. I'm sure there were things no one saw but you know the government is not the answer. The government has schools that suspend kids for cutting out something that looks like a square on a sheet of paper; or play with their "Hello Kitty bubble guns." Of course they are now trying to teach kids to be afraid of guns and this is the way they do it. There will always be ugly and bad things that happen. The government taking away our rights is not the answer. And some of the decisions the government makes are so stupid that I wouldn't want to live that way. It actually wouldn't be living it would be existing.

They are now trying to deal with guns emotionally. Our freedoms and way of life has worked for a very long time. But people can't stop trying to get all the power. And they are using these mass shooting to get that power. They are not looking at the video games or the mental health issues; they want our guns even when misuse of legally bought guns are rare!

By the way, the above listed article was published in the Lancaster Intelligencer Journal, a newspaper which is often accused of being "very left leaning".....

"Rodney King, the golf pro at Moccasin Run"

 

Izzy they can even make a gun now that can actually shoot!!!

Actually, I was referring to "Mr Global Warming", Al Gore. The man with the answer to all our problems.





................ or was that the problem to all our answers ?  

Misuse of legally bought guns is certainly not rare.   Aurora and Newton were done with legally bought guns.  There were five "accidental" shootings last week at three different gun shows.  So much for legal gun owners always having a clue on handling and safety.  The scenario I gave for the moving shooter with armor was actually explained to me by a trained sniper, a man who has absolutely no interest in handing his guns over to the State.  However, because he is hardcore no nonsense, he will tell anyone who asks him that people who think it is easy or even possible to take out a moving target in a crowded situation that they are deluded.    He has reviewed Aurora and flat out states he would never dream of attempting to get off a shot in such a situation- dark, lots of panicked people, camoflauged sniper.  He akso doubts that teachers who would at most have handgun training would have had the time to unlock their weapons and remain cool and collected enough to get a perfect head shot on once again, a moving target, and they would only have had one chance before he would have been able to mow them down.

 

The NRA gun nuts are all screaming as if the plan is to collect everyone's gun.  The Declaration of Independence says all have a right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  I suggest legal gun owners get with the program and be seen caring about other's lives, and not just about their damned guns.  The majority will not accept armed teachers, the majority of teachers will not accept being armed, so best gun owners learn to keep guns out of the hands of their crazy, psychotic children. If that means they have to keep the key to the gun safe on a chain around their neck, that's what they need to do or get rid of the guns.   Once again, because I am a broken record, all First World countries except the US have stricter controls on gun ownership and less gun violence.  Same sickos, same videogames.  The difference is the ease and availability of guns.   I don't care if Tom Cruise's bodyguard has a gun.  Tom Cruise's bodyguard is most likely an ex-serviceman who has no illusions about what he can and cannot do with a gun.  It's these guys who think they are going to be the hero in the mass shooting who shoot themselves at gun shows and leave their guns unattended.   

SherryRichard wrote:

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All of you who are bad mouthing David Barton and Glenn Beck: Do you know how big their staff is who research their information? Sure there are mistakes made. And if you think Glenn Beck is going to put David Barton's book out without ensuring those accusations are WRONG, you are very mistaken. The book would have already been put out again! Even David Barton corrects his work if he finds out it is incorrect. What is your complaint, that they do not shut up and stay silent on the issue or that they are actually going to make sure that the information is correct and then put the book out again with footnotes where you can find corroboration of the material? Do you guys realize you are in effect setting yourself up as experts?

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 From Publisher's Weekly:

'Jefferson Lies' Author Negotiating New Edition for Glenn Beck’s Mercury Ink

David Barton, author of The Jefferson Lies, which Thomas Nelson pulled from shelves last week, is in negotiations to publish a new edition of the book with Mercury Ink, Glenn Beck’s publishing arm. Barton told PW he bought back around 17,000 copies of the current edition and will sell out of those before the publication of the new edition. He said Nelson would not give him the digital version: “They just pulled that down, and we are going to have to reconvert it if we want to sell an e-book” of the current edition; he added he has not yet decided whether to do that. “It depends on how quickly we think we can get the new edition out.”

Barton said the new edition "will not include any substantive changes, but I will rephrase some things to remove any potential confusion.” He also plans to add back some of the content Nelson cut in their editing process, and that in the process of reviewing the accusations made by his critics, “I have actually run across more supporting documents that strengthen my case, not weaken it.”

-- Edited by rumple on Saturday 26th of January 2013 06:52:24 PM

This is the last I'll say about it. Washington, Jefferson, Adams (both of 'em) Franklin and many others were not "Christians." They were "Deists." Anyone can buy a copy of "The Jefferson Bible" and see for themselves (except David Barton, apparently) what Thomas Jefferson's views were, without "interpretation."

Two Conservative Christian Professors named Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter (from a Conservative Christian College) wrote a book in response to David Barton's "The Jefferson Lies," called "Getting Jefferson Right: Fact Checking Claims about Our Third President."

The links I've provided thus far are primarily from "The World," the leading Conservative Christian site that even Barton admits is at the center of the controversy, but I feel they've gone above and beyond in providing an honest assessment of each side of the argument(s), as anyone can see for themselves.

As Marvin Olasky, editor of The World, put it in their introduction to Throckmorton and Coulter's excellent, detailed critique:

"...Why invest the time? Why should you care? Because Jefferson, author of the Declaration of Independence and coiner of the “wall of separation” phrase, was and is enormously influential in his defining of America and the role of Christianity with it. What we think about the past (and future?) of “Christian America” depends heavily on what we think about Jefferson. Some evangelicals talk about “taking back America”—but did Christians ever have it?

David Barton, in essence, says yes. He has achieved enormous popularity among evangelicals for his writing about American history, and enormous scorn from the secular left. Last year a new set of critics emerged, with professors Warren Throckmorton and Michael Coulter of Grove City College, a conservative school, prominent among them. Their book, Getting Jefferson Right: Fact Checking Claims about Our Third President, takes aim at many of Barton’s contentions.

The Bible tells us that “iron sharpens iron,” and that was our goal in reporting on this controversy last summer and fall (read WORLD’s complete coverage): We now hope for more sharpening as we make these extensive points and counterpoints readily readable by all. As the great Puritan poet John Milton wrote concerning Truth, “Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse, in a free and open encounter?” I hope you’ll take the time to understand this grappling, because the stakes are high. Please read this critique and then Barton’s response. —Marvin Olasky

SherryRichard wrote:

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Anita I have lived in a VERY different time in this country; one that if you were allowed to look into the past you wouldn't even recognize this Country. I have watched it change and have been unable to do anything about it. I've explained it but very few can comprehend it. My boss once told me by the nature of where I worked I had seen too much of the evil in people. I had never thought about it before he mentioned it but he was right. I know exactly how bad people can be...

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 I'm sure if the forefather could have the look into what this countries, become, they would be aghast to how society has speed-up, and some ways if they even looked at inventions that today seem so common-place  as heiressicial inventions of satan or the devils work.  An would be aghast at the weapons like a mass fire assault rifles or a shoulder-fired basooka, or a mechanical tank or a fighter jet, or if they saw the destruction of a WMD, an would've made provisions the our holy document to make sure that those weapons would not fall into the hands of evil...