The Original American Chopper Fan Forum, and the new, and Original Orange County Choppers on CMT Fan Forum

PAMD · Senior Member

American Guns cancelled in wake of Newtown Massacre

Izzy Ryder · Senior Member

I thought they were cancelled long ago. It's been months since it last aired. I can't even remember when the last Sons of Guns episode aired.

AnitaLaLouise · Senior Member

None of those gun shows were all that interesting anyway, at least not to me. Plus they over-saturated the channel with them.

anotheridiot · Guru

I will miss Paige now that oogling her 18 year old body sits better on my conscience, but she wants to be a school teacher, and the OCC father son war with that stupid engraving school just lost all my interest anyway. Another kid with little business sense. You are good enough, there is a business to run, but lets make sure my dad can never do what I can do.

Blame hollywood, guess thats the easy way out. Blowing up drums of gasoline, shooting bottles, shooting old cars, forcing new customers to take gun safety classes, gee I dont know, seems like it was showing how you are supposed to use guns in a safe environment.

Gun education is made to look like morons learning how to use guns.

rumple · Senior Member

anotheridiot wrote:
Gun education is made to look like morons learning how to use guns.

Obviously, you must have felt the same way about English classes. biggrin

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

And for Elguapo his Queen also of course...

-- Edited by dahammer_57 on Sunday 23rd of December 2012 01:01:59 AM

-- Edited by admin on Friday 28th of December 2012 02:05:06 PM

SherryRichard · Senior Member

Sons of Guns. And immediately I knew the show was scripted. But then I never really heard them profess to be a total reality show. And I took them as a regular show on regular TV. I actually think that Steph and Kris was married when the show started.

It was a show that I never felt was trying to propagandize any particular theme other than showing off the guns that came their way. If those guns would have showed up at Red Jacket if it wasn't a TV show, I don't know and don't particular care. And some of the drama the producers introduced had Discovery's mark all over it. I don't watch very much TV and I absolutely hate TV shows that has some message they are trying to introduce in our society. It's getting harder and harder to find a show for just plain intertainment anymore.

I never liked American Guns. The show seemed to have a segment in every episode where the dad was always trying to show off his bartering skills! I understand that he has to get a good price in order to make some kind of profit but I have a limit on what I can stand on steller haggling skills! I mean does that have to go on every episode? I guess you can tell that I didn't like the guy myself.

As far as blowing up things, if you take it as part of the end of each episode then I don't think you get bothered about it. I think it's sorta like how you take these shows. If you are just watching a TV show where there will be some shooting at objects in a "range" setting then I don't think it should make a person want to go out and blow up things.... I mean unless they are totally unhinged; and in that case, anything could set them off.

I think the problem is with these cable shows. I don't know that much about them except they bundle a bunch of channels and sell them to an outlet. As a result, they play the same shows over and over; which is fine if one missed the original show. What I have learned is they don't spend much money on programming and the writers. I think they would probably get a better show if they had better writers (and admitted it); and someone could keep track of how many times they use a certain type of topic. But this is a cheap way to give people some intertainment so they just throw them together.

In my case it's the people on the show that get me; not what the show is about. That stands for PJD and Rick; and Sons of Guns, Holmes Inspection or Holmes on Homes, the two twins that refurnish and sell houses, Income Property and Kitchen Cousins. All these people have one thing in common; they appear to like one another and don't try to stab each other in the back!

It has gotten better though. When AC used to have 2 shows per motorcycle (and they showed more production of the bike) sometimes when the shows were reruns they would show the 1st part of the bike build and never show the second part of the show. It looked like the programming was just thrown together.

Nowadays when I can't find show I haven't seen a hundred times or they continue to air a certain show everytime I click on the TV on I just turn the TV off and pick up my Kindle.

anotheridiot · Guru

All the shows are scripted. I wished Scott McMillian good luck at his new job and he said he opened his own shop in 2010, he went back to Gas monkey to help them with the tv show. So his leaving at the start of the Apache was as scripted as it gets. He had his new opportunity three years ago and took it.

I still dont know whats wrong with my english, but it comes down to people that raise their kids with guns to hunt all teach them how to use guns. The other 85% of the world are learning about guns thru xbox. I just say these 70 school shootings have more to do with the untrained than the trained.

I kinda put this to a streaker at a baseball game. Networks refuse to show the people trying to get famous as they are running on the field eluding tackles from security. They either go to commercial or a blank scoreboard or in the booth with the announcers. But school shootings get 100% new coverage until we know everything possible about the shooter and then figure out three days later that this was his school, not the school his mom taught at.

We are at the point we know Amish mafia is scripted, gas monkey is scripted, the gun shows were scripted, but in now way was american chopper scripted? Maybe the first few broken doors were scripted and they never had to again, but it ended up being real life for them...... or did it?

SherryRichard · Senior Member

I hope the all of my message gets posted this time. It appears that my previous message started in the middle of a sentence.

In regard to AC it wasn't long until I thought it was scripted and believed that way until they got involved with the court system. Perhaps in small towns they can do such things but out here where I live any TV show trying to manipulate the courts would find themselves in some real trouble.

The courts out here are struggling to hear all the legitimate cases and certainly wouldn't allow themselves to be used in a plot for an episode. And we used to have some really good researchers in this forum who knew how to get information from court records so we actually knew what was going on. In fact we got to where we could anticipate what was coming up on Sr vs Jr. I think that is when the producers started messing with the time lines.

I've seen Sr's attempts to try and act and I can't see him pulling off the dark, crazy, lying father. I do believe that Sr has used bully tactics to get what he wants and it's part of his nature. And I think both Jr and Mikey (and probably Dan) use passive-aggressive tactics to counter their father. It appears that Jr can eventually be driven to the point where he will verbally fight with his father to get his point across. There has been a few things said over time that Dan doesn't put up with his dad's nonsense. Sr's behavior appears to have caused the most damage in Mikey. He really needs to stay away from his dad and only have dealings with him as a father and a son if Sr doesn't try to destroy Mikey's confidence.

And then there was that one vender that said he had told her that she could only deal with his business and no other or he wouldn't do business with her. She said I am in business to make a living and not to support Sr or words to that effect. What I think we saw were actions from people that were probably made "larger than life" to make the show more interesting in the producer's and Discovery's eyes. I don't need all that; I would have been happy to watch them design, fabricate, paint and assemble the bike and then reveal it. And then messing around; they are really good at that and it's fun to watch. My favorites were the motorcycle joust, the ambush with Jr, Vin, Rick, Mikey and Sr throwing; was it balloons(?), that video of Vin and Cody called Shank Redemption (I can't remember the first part of the title). Anyway there is enough drama just living in this world nowadays; I watch TV to relax not to get all wound up!

Will and Steph don't even own Red Jacket. They couldn't come up with some parts of guns (probably they were used in other guns and they didn't keep diligent records) and their license was pulled. Joe, Kris and was it Jason(?), the head gunsmith) had the licenses for the shop. That's another reason why I believe Kris was married to Steph because I don't think they would give a license to somebody who was learning the business. And I Will talked like Kris was part of his family. I also knew that the head gun smith had really left the show and opened his own shop sooner than the time line of the show let it be known that he had left. I looked the guy up on Google and found these things out.

And I totally agree with you that people who are acting badly should not be rewarded by televising their behavior. We had a bunch of long car chases in SoCal and the TV stations would take to the skies to follow them to the very end!!! People who watched TV shows during this time was out of luck. Believe it or not there was a time when people were not rewarded for their bad behavior and society used peer pressure to reject actions that were crude or violent. Nowadays people think they can pass laws to keep people safe. That will never work. People learn by their mistakes; or by the mistakes of others and when all is said or done it is up to the person to avoid dangerous situations. And even then sometimes no matter what you do a disaster can happen. But people who think that other people will keep them safe will end up in hot water. I watch kids at the high school step off the curb without looking for cars. And they were walking in a place where all of the kids were being left off for school. They were lucky they didn't have more problems because it was a very busy place. They have a law in Cali that says when a school bus is picking up kids they flash red lights and the entire street (coming and going) has to stop until every kid is on the bus. The kids get to the bus stop and stay there if they are dropped off without running out in front of cars. But people trying to get to work are stopped so some kid won't run out in front of them. This is just one of the stupid laws the legislature out here passes. When I entered what they call middle school now I lived in a little community between downtown Los Angeles and Pasadena and I walked to the public bus stop and rode the bus to the Jr High School. I did the same thing to get to the high school but I walked a longer distance after I left the bus. It was not only safe for me to do it but I knew what dangers were on the street and to look out for them.

anotheridiot · Guru

I dont believe Sr could be scripted, I just believe that back when they were breaking down doors and driving fords thru offices it was an attempt to show a wild side. I would think discovery might have thought that would make for some exciting television. But instead of being a once in a while blowing off steam deal, it became the norm. It must be what people want to see. Its the point of a reality show where the camera is not just following you, but you are changing your persona because the camera is there. Jr knows it a persona he was changing since he would not be shown with a cigarette. Just that tiny detail showed how important his image was because of the cameras.

As far as mikey is concerned though, he was the closest to his father. If you really look at it, jr had no desire to have any kind of relationship with his father until one thing happened, Mikey quit the show because he thought it was the best way to make up with his father. Mikeys problem was running everything he thought about making a relationship again thru jr. Alot of times jr suggested he didnt do it. But then somehow, magically, jr starts getting back with sr and mikey is not in the picture. How bad would it have looked if mikey was happy again with dad and jr was still outside?

rumple · Senior Member

Admin can delete this message.

There's something about SherryRichards' post that makes us have to nearly double the size of the browser window, just to read the parts on the right-hand side. (All the other posts, too, but it didn't start until Sherry posted hers.) Some errant bit of html code, no doubt. Can someone please fix that?

admin · Member

There were two posts with large graphics files which sent the resolution out of kilter. One by Izzy, and the other, by Hammer. I attempted to reformat them, unsuccessfully, and was forced to delete them. Would the both of you please re-post your comments, with my apologies.

I had attempted to correct the resolution three days ago, and spent almost 30 minutes with this attempt. My apologies for not being more proactive.

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

No big deal...lost to the ethernet I guess. I will try to resize photos smaller in the future.

Thanks for the explanation anyway.

ghostmonkey · Guru

anotheridiot wrote:
I dont believe Sr could be scripted, I just believe that back when they were breaking down doors and driving fords thru offices it was an attempt to show a wild side. I would think discovery might have thought that would make for some exciting television. But instead of being a once in a while blowing off steam deal, it became the norm. It must be what people want to see. Its the point of a reality show where the camera is not just following you, but you are changing your persona because the camera is there. Jr knows it a persona he was changing since he would not be shown with a cigarette. Just that tiny detail showed how important his image was because of the cameras.

As far as mikey is concerned though, he was the closest to his father. If you really look at it, jr had no desire to have any kind of relationship with his father until one thing happened, Mikey quit the show because he thought it was the best way to make up with his father. Mikeys problem was running everything he thought about making a relationship again thru jr. Alot of times jr suggested he didnt do it. But then somehow, magically, jr starts getting back with sr and mikey is not in the picture. How bad would it have looked if mikey was happy again with dad and jr was still outside?

Do we see anyone smoking? So when did Jr start to adopt this so called persona?

No Jr just wanted Sr not to trash him and his family. Sadly Sr only wanted to reunite with Jr once his negative imagine was hurting OCC business and eventually hurting the TV show. Even more sadly Sr cost them all the TV show just because he was jealous. Mikey is a grown man and does as he pleases. Why would it look bad on Jr if Mikey made up with Sr? Dan doesn't have a relationship with Sr so why would it look bad if Jr didn't as well, especially considering all of what Sr did to Jr?

AnitaLaLouise · Senior Member

Coxie, you always ask people to prove things they say, so please provide evidence that Sr cost them all the show? You were quick to ask when people claimed Jr caused the cancellation, so let's see the proof of your claim.

ghostmonkey · Guru

If what PAMD had posted was true about the loss of revenue and it does seem to fit with the lack of top clients let alone any clients then we can relate that to Sr's negative image and him talking with Steve M how it was hurting OCC thus hurting the show.

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

Nothing in print has hinted at the "real" reason so far. No "smoking gun". We all have our favorite conspiracy theory depending on which side of the Sr/Jr fence you fall on, perhaps the truth is somewhere in between. Seems like they both were straying pretty far from the formula with cheeze burgers, horse heads, bicycles, and t-shirts becoming major focal points of entire episodes. As for the official Discovery statement which is the only "proof" at this time read below.

Eileen O'Neill, group president of Discovery and TLC Networks: "After 10 years and 233 episodes of incredible, riveting reality television, American Chopper will be ending its run. This series was one of the very first family-based reality programs on television. Special thanks to Pilgrim Studios for over a decade of great producing. The Teutuls have given us really innovative bike builds and real drama since 2002. We wish both Orange County Choppers and Paul Junior Designs the best."

PAMD · Senior Member

The information that I received was from a friend who is actually the head of engineering for Blue Ridge Communications, the third largest cable provider in Pennsylvania, behind Service Electric, and Comcast. They work in conjunction a service called "Via Media", for purposes of selling advertisement time on various cable-only networks. Their amount of revenue is largely based on the ratings which the shows pull in. The advertising packages which Via Media sells to corporations, charitable organizations, small business, political concerns, and other service providers, is usually "age specific", or geared towards people with specific interests. They use both Nielsen, and Broadcasting and Cable survey information to "price packages" for the individual customers.

That said, In late October, the ad revenues for the two minutes allocated during American Chopper were equivalent to those of "Everybody Loves Raymond", on Nickelodeon's TV Land. My friend told me that the season started off with A/C's ratings being on-par with offerings from the lineup on History, and declined rapidly thereafter.

I haven't spoken with him since earlier this month. When I do, I will ask if his prediction as to whether there will still be two personalities from the show who will receive their own Saturday morning "motorhead" show. I'd like to see Vinnie and Rick team up, with Brendan, and possibly Cody....

That is if they aren't relegated to packaging T-shirts....

ghostmonkey · Guru

AnitaLaLouise wrote:
Coxie, you always ask people to prove things they say, so please provide evidence that Sr cost them all the show? You were quick to ask when people claimed Jr caused the cancellation, so let's see the proof of your claim.

I should say IMO. Others post opinion as fact so why not do the same?

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

ghostmonkey wrote: I should say IMO. Others post opinion as fact so why not do the same?

Beacause you're better than that coxie...you're just plain better than that.

ghostmonkey · Guru

dahammer_57 wrote:
ghostmonkey wrote: I should say IMO. Others post opinion as fact so why not do the same?
Beacause you're better than that coxie...you're just plain better than that.

Yeah you're right. I'll be a good boy. lol

anotheridiot · Guru

PAMD wrote:
The information that I received was from a friend who is actually the head of engineering for Blue Ridge Communications, the third largest cable provider in Pennsylvania, behind Service Electric, and Comcast. They work in conjunction a service called "Via Media", for purposes of selling advertisement time on various cable-only networks. Their amount of revenue is largely based on the ratings which the shows pull in. The advertising packages which Via Media sells to corporations, charitable organizations, small business, political concerns, and other service providers, is usually "age specific", or geared towards people with specific interests. They use both Nielsen, and Broadcasting and Cable survey information to "price packages" for the individual customers.
That said, In late October, the ad revenues for the two minutes allocated during American Chopper were equivalent to those of "Everybody Loves Raymond", on Nickelodeon's TV Land. My friend told me that the season started off with A/C's ratings being on-par with offerings from the lineup on History, and declined rapidly thereafter.
I haven't spoken with him since earlier this month. When I do, I will ask if his prediction as to whether there will still be two personalities from the show who will receive their own Saturday morning "motorhead" show. I'd like to see Vinnie and Rick team up, with Brendan, and possibly Cody....
That is if they aren't relegated to packaging T-shirts....

The bottom line is if Discovery was not exhausted by this show, they would have moved it off Monday nights against WWE RAW and Monday night football.

I dont want to keep quoting and fuelling the fire, but as far as any proof about cancelling the show its very simple, no matter how hard you try to go around the fact that jr was fired off the "set". Sr was not fired off the set.

As far as how important the image and persona of jr is to not making up with sr until after the little brother mike did, its all answered in your popularity contest and votes of hatred against sr in the contest. How many people here would start to think, hey, I guess sr isnt that bad of a guy, look at mikey horsing around with him at OCC because they are friends again and jr is out pouting with dan about their awesome careers that were only made possible because of Sr. If sr was not in the steel business, would dan own that company now? would jr have found his calling as a bike builder? the simple answer is no, good or bad, what people cannot accept is none of it would be possible without sr.

-- Edited by anotheridiot on Saturday 29th of December 2012 11:17:33 AM

SherryRichard · Senior Member

I just get on the Quick Reply and start typing. I tried commenting to a quote and it didn't get posted so now I just use the quick reply. When I first came on the forum I was getting the responses in very wide margins. It's hard to read that way and I certainly wouldn't change to wide margins. I got a new computer and had to exchange it because I couldn't deal with Windows8. (The Internet Exployer kept crashing and yes I know I can change the default and I did so but I still was having it crash among other things). This computer I have now was the only Windows7 in the store. If I'm not mistaken, I believe I rejoined this forum during the time I was trying to get the other computer to work. However, I hope it wasn't me that messed up the works.

Frankly I have seen nothing about Jr being fired off the set. (Is it possible somebody was talking about him being fired from OCC). I'm not saying it didn't happen but I haven't seen anything stating that fact. Jr was the one that was getting work. At the end, Sr was building bikes for his cafe and to "add to his chopper collection." He didn't have outside clients.

I don't know how many people watched the build off but there were four (4) shops represented and Jr won the build off in a contest that only allowed one call per phone. I still don't know for sure who came in 3rd and 4th but I wouldn't be surprised if Sr came in last again. Yes there were people who supported Sr on the forum but I'm not sure just how many because we had some people who were posting under different names. However the majority of people since I was on the OCC forum from 2005 didn't like Sr. Only a very few supported him. It was around the time when we saw the show with Steve and Sr talking about his image that the people with different identities started to post.

I watch other family reality shows and they don't have all the drama that Discovery or Pilgrim or both seem to think has to be present. Jon and Dru Scott use time limits, costs and client add tension to their show on HGTV; they have two shows on there; Property Bros. and Buying and Selling. They have different circumstances for each show but the drama is limited to getting the job done on time, their clients adding things on to the build or things they discover during the build that add to the cost. Part of the show is how they can deal with these things and stay on budget and meet the deadline. But you can tell the twins are very fond of one another; but they do act out some twin arguments; you know typical Jr High School type of thing... Frankly I think it makes it more family and don't mind it at all because I don't see it every show.

Mike Holmes has his kids on his shows now that they are grown. He also has a son-in-law on the TV crew. Again they have Sherry and Mike Jr having sibling arguments or indulging in fun. And those young people along with the rest of the crew work hard. I've never seen Mike say anything but good things about his kids; in fact he acts very proud of them.

I don't watch shows with violence or shows that plays pranks on people. That is not intertainment to me. When Alice and Wonderland first came out my parents took me to see the show. I couldn't watch it so my dislike of suspenseful things came early.

Is it possible that they had to cancel the original show before they could go foreward with one with Jr and his crew plus a few more like Rick and/or Brendan? Also perhaps someone could answer this for me. You know Sr fired Joe. There was a reference by I believe JQ that Joe could get work by using his resources. Is it possible that Joe actually did have the resources to get the builds and that in addition to the horrible bikes OCC was building could Joe's absence have hurt them too? I do know that JQ was overstepping OCC's bounds to expect a vendor to owe them total loyalty and Joe to not use his resources in his new job. It's sorta feudal but I just though I'd ask....

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

anotheridiot wrote:The simple answer is no, good or bad, what people cannot accept is none of it would be possible without sr.
Welcome to the American Chopper and Politics forum, where you dont have the right to your opinion, but you have the right to be wrong.

Confucius and Clint Eastwood say: "Opinions are like *******s. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.

PAMD · Senior Member

Sherry,

I'm convinced that the problem with wide margins occurs when quotations in a reply are made, and there are large graphics files in the post being quoted. You were only an innocent bystander, as is evidenced by the fact that once the two errant posts (also not the fault or intent of Izzy or Hammer, the poster's) were deleted (after 30 minutes of attempting to reformat them), the problem resolved.

Somehow, the quotation process allows the lines which sequester the quote from the balance of the post to extend beyond the set margins when large graphics files are inserted into the post being quoted.

AnitaLaLouise · Senior Member

I think that if we could limit the number of gifs, smilies and other images in posts there would be fewer problems with the forum. I often have crashes on my tablet due to all that junk loading. Especially the ones jn peoples' signatures.

Sherry, you need to read the article about the show being cancelled. It was Pilligan who said he fired Jr and threw him off the set, and it happened during the final season. In the final episodes neither PJD or OCC looked to have much work. PJD was doing t-shirts, bicycles and fixing the 9/11 bike. Both were doing things on their ill-fated production bike. Not much as far as paying customers.

SherryRichard · Senior Member

Well after all the trouble I had with the Windows8 computer I'm happy to say that I've never had a crash with my Apple iPad. But I don't do a whole lot with it so that may be why I haven't had any trouble. I can say I can keep linked with some cable networks a lot better with the iPad than the computer.

Anita, I wasn't saying that Jr being fired and threw off the set didn't happen; I have been reading everything I can and I just haven't seen it posted. That does not mean that I have read everything because I haven't. I just figure that producers have egos too. And this isn't even my opinion this is just a guess; their argument could have occurred when Pilligan found out about Jr purchasing a studio?

I guess we will have to wait and see if Jr has all it takes to get back on TV; and I hope he does with his gang. Because I'm one of those people who do connect with the people I watch on a regular basis; otherwise I don't watch them.

One other thing... And this is my opinion, when the show first started I thought Sr did look out for Jr. He might have felt like I can run all over him but "outsiders" can't. I always felt like that is why that guy on the first show didn't show up again. He and Sr might have balled out Jr for putting that piece on the bike but that probably wasn't the only time the guy tried it; and I don't think Sr would have put up with it one time. When the show first started they argued but they didn't fight like mad dogs. And I did feel that Sr would not put up with someone else jumping on Jr. That's how I read it....

PAMD, I've never dealt with what you are talking about, at least I don't think so. Whenever I set a magin default they have held. Now when the word processor first came on the scene we did have a lot of trouble but it was a new technology. I'm glad you got it fixed. Hope this administrator duty doesn't take up too much of your time!

Izzy Ryder · Senior Member

The Wyatts may come back on another channel..... "exclusive-american-guns-stars-talk-about-their-ties-to-sandy-hook-say-show/"

Jr, take note. You may have a chance on another channel too.

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

All we need is a few more "guns" cancellations and some real good chopper opportunities may open up.

rumple · Senior Member

Are you suggesting there will be a spike in purchases of horse head bikes?

Izzy Ryder · Senior Member

Rachel appears comfortable around hi-power weaponry...

1Moparsick0 · Guru

I shure don't understand why none of these shows or the producers or the NRA stepping up the effort for programs instilling safe firearm useage. Instead of doubling-down on the Idea that it's a GOD-GIVEN right... Yes it is a Right that is one of the primisses of our founding fathers constitution, but with rights comes responsiblities. I don't see the Gun Lobbyists talking about triggers locks an gun safes, or any of the means of securing a persons firearm. I don't even see these attempts at gun control really even working in any way, at one time it was outrage at dirt-cheap saturday-night-specials, or uzi's and mac-10's in the 80-90's, it's really doesn't focus on trying to control society instead of teaching society in general how to be responsible in our actions.

I don't agree with taking away any rights, but surely if there is no desire to teach basic responsibility, is this the road best to go down??

-- Edited by 1Moparsick0 on Wednesday 16th of January 2013 12:26:00 PM

PAMD · Senior Member

I am not now, nor have ever been an NRA member, however, in their defense, I must say that better than 80% of the safe firearm handling courses given in the United States are courses which are sponsored, or were created by the NRA. Pennsylvania's Hunter's Safety Course evolved from the NRA's "Pennsylvania Safe Hunter" program, which began in the late 1950's.

Yesterday, a student was stabbed by another at the Wilson Middle School in Reading. The provoking factor??, probably Facebook posts.

The problem isn't guns, the availability of "high capacity magazines", "Assault Weapons", or anything even remotely involving firearms. It's a combination of societal stressors, inadequately managed psychoses, drug-induced mental problems, depersonalization of society through virtual reality, physical inactivity caused by the willingness of many of us to veg out in front of a computer, television set, or video game, and the perceived need for more aggressive stimulation to satisfy ones needs, i.e. the need for more potent video games, movies, language, and even comedic television programs; for instance, just watch one of the Comedy Central Roasts. Dean Martin would be turning over in his grave had he known that his idea gave birth to this abomination.

BTW, the Sandy Hook Shooter's mother stored her weaponry in a gun safe, and apparently stored the ammunition in another room in the house.

We need the ability to monitor and report cases of suspected mental illness without fear of reproach by the ACLU, and other organizations whose policies have created many of these problems. Prior to the 1990's, multiple shootings were not commonplace; the lone exception being the San Antonio Tower Shooting of 1966 .

Until we figure a way to change societal attitudes, and reduce stressors in society, these types of events will continue to occur, and will will pay little attention to them, as we are becoming "jaded" and inattentive to the feelings, needs, and rights of others.

Thirty minutes after posting the above, I started reading about Charles Whitman, and found this disturbing Tumblr page:

http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/charles%20whitman

This is what society needs to be on the look out for!

ghostmonkey · Guru

Sorry doc but the guns are also a problem. Does anyone really need a gun with a 100 rounds of ammo to defend themselves?

In China a guy went off in a school with a knife and injured 22 but not 1 died. Now imagine if he was well armed. How many would be dead instead of just injured?

Izzy Ryder · Senior Member

Yes, China has wonderful laws protecting their people's welfare.... let's follow their lead.

13-temple-of-heaven-smog.jpg?w=750

ghostmonkey · Guru

Fark and what's that got to do with anything???????

PAMD · Senior Member

There were firearms readily available with the same capacities twenty years ago, and far fewer problems with mass shootings. Columbine didn't occur until after the Brady Bill/Assault Weapons Ban of 1994.

The problem is societal; in the way we handle stressors, our lack of adequate access to relief from stress, and the fact that we are immersed in a society which has forgotten the importance of enjoying life, because we must now fight for every penny to exist, and worry if we will be gainfully employed this time tomorrow. Improve this aspect of our situation, combined with a more proactive mental health care system and policies, and you will see this type of occurrence stop almost overnight.

Maybe Facebook should be banned, because it seems to be the propellant behind that 14-year old's explosion at Reading PA's Wilson Middle School, yesterday.

1Moparsick0 · Guru

ghostmonkey wrote:
Sorry doc but the guns are also a problem. Does anyone really need a gun with a 100 rounds of ammo to defend themselves?

In China a guy went off in a school with a knife and injured 22 but not 1 died. Now imagine if he was well armed. How many would be dead instead of just injured?

Ghostie there are ways, to disemble a weapon to make if not work.. Removal of firepin, triggerlocks, many shotguns the barrel comes apart from the carrier.. There are Responible ways to keep youth an the unstable to be kept away from firearms. NOW THERE IS A PROBLEM WHEN THE UNSTABLE IS THE FIREARM OWNER.

BUT what is upsetting me, is that nobody here is talking about those responsible ways. I don't agree also about having these massive firearms that can spray 20-30 rounds... I know in so states you had to have a dowel or plug for game shotgun to only take 3 rounds cambered in to tube, but anyways, a responsable gun owner does efforts to teach responible behaviors, an there's not alot of what i'm hearing so in some ways I'm perplexed, since I was taught much better self-control of use of firearms, an these idgits that I see on today, question me on how we stopped teaching responsible behaviors...

1Moparsick0 · Guru

Izzy Ryder wrote:
Yes, China has wonderful laws protecting their people's welfare.... let's follow their lead.

smokypittsburgh%2B-%2BDowntown%2BPittsburgh,%2BNovember%2B1954.jpg

Now America was just like that before any enviroment laws.... Looks up deadly smogs of Denora inn 1948, this is a picture of Pittsburgh in 1952.. I can remeber stories from my mother who lived in Enola in her young years constantly sweeping the coal dust off everything from the steam engines belching smoke in the 50's in Enola..

AnitaLaLouise · Senior Member

The issue isn't just guns. You could outlaw guns, and the types of people who do these things would just use another method - a la Timothy McVeigh or the Unibomber.

We have to look at the whole picture. Access to and an overhaul of our mental health system, including at times being able to commit someone if they are a danger to the population. I don't think it's a coincidence that almost every one of this latest crop had extreme mental health issue that were not being treated. Responsible parenting and making everyone responsible to themselves. An end to the nanny state. Stop teaching that everyone is totally equal in every possible way, everyone gets a trophy, no one loses. Media frenzy following anything like this making the scumbag famous.

Then if you tweak some of the laws, universal background checks, outlawing huge magazines, or whatever, it might just have an effect.

Maribegood · Senior Member

The argument that they can build a bomb or use a car is a strawman. Yes, indeed they can, but they do not. For the most part, guns are used. While I agree we as a society and children in particular spend too much time in front of a screen, do not exercise, and are alienated, we are not unique. Forget China. All of Europe, Australia, and Canada have stricter gun control and far, far, far fewer instances of gun related violence as a result. None of these places has BANS on guns. You simply have to jump through more hoops to get one. They are also far more secularized, and still have less murder by guns than the US. Molotov ****tails are used so often in European demonstrations that they are boring. They have never been able to kill more than 3 people at a time, and that was because of the stampede and not the firebomb.

Just so so my position is clear, I do not support across the board weapons bans. People can have guns, but they can have guns the way they do cars. With lisences and education. With background checks. With limits on the amounts of ammo that can be purchased. With the understanding that they will share the liability for crimes committed with their guns unless they are reported as stolen to the police. If the government ever went rouge, I don't care how many assault weapons you have stocked or how much ammo you have buried, you have no way to hold out. A government that can send a drone up the ass of an Al-Quada operative in Pakistan from a computer in Washington is not quaking because someone with a Bible and a bunker has some assault weapons.

How we handle mental illness in this country is piecemeal and half assed and that has to change as well. So I do not want to hear the NRA is crying a river if gun owners are required from here on out to have mental health clearance before issuing lisences. If you have a gun and a mentally ill individual at home, it is your responsibility as a gun owner to secure your weapons or have your assets or estate seized in the event your guns get into the hands of your mentally ill family member. People worry about their sidewalks being cleared of snow so they can't be sued if someone slips, it is not unreasonable for them to have the same dillegence with their firearms.

The problem is multifaceted, but you cannot take guns off the discussion table.

-- Edited by Maribegood on Thursday 17th of January 2013 03:15:55 PM

1Moparsick0 · Guru

I don't quite agree. this is a issue that never changes really, you are going to have people snap in their sense of reality an go over the edge, like any social animal when it isn't socialized or trained how the behave by the leader or owner or parent, it acts out violient behaviors when stressed out.

SherryRichard · Senior Member

How right you are Anita! Sometime in I believe the 1960's or 1970's the armory for the National Guard in Pomona, California was broken into by criminals and all their weapons were stolen. There have been instances where gun shops have been robbed as well. The fact is criminals don't obey laws so; as they always do, the government makes laws for the law-abiding no matter how insane those laws are. The government has to appear to be governing; but they can't control the gangs and criminals, so they hammer the law abiding instead.

Did anybody notice how many memos and instructions were given in those 23 administrative orders Obama signed? That is how the government tries to fix things; and then everybody ignores them unless something comes up and they can use it to further their agenda. Now since both the governor of New York and Obama has issued these administrative orders I'm not sure exactly which orders has this in them; the 7 bullet magazine covers everybody including the police! That's what happens when you have people dealing in emotion instead of looking at things in reality.

So instead of rifles one could buy a bottle, gasoline and get a rag and make a molotov ****tail. It will take out a whole bunch of people but it can't be controlled to just certain people. It will kill everybody in the area. It will cause much more devestation than a rifle; and remember we can't have automatic weapons. And like Anita mentioned look what fertilizer did in Oklahoma City.

1Moparsick0 · Guru

ghostmonkey wrote:
Is this for real?
http://superofficialnews.com/small-town-in-louisiana-arming-its-students-staff-with-hand-guns/

Surely this is a jest, plus.. The story of L.A. kids doing something called "whipping". these are sensationalized stories...

-- Edited by 1Moparsick0 on Thursday 17th of January 2013 07:46:10 PM

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

You have been "punked" by Super Official News. Same fake satire crap as "The Onion".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Onion

-- Edited by dahammer_57 on Thursday 17th of January 2013 11:59:55 PM

AnitaLaLouise · Senior Member

Maribegood wrote:
The argument that they can build a bomb or use a car is a strawman. Yes, indeed they can, but they do not. For the most part, guns are used. While I agree we as a society and children in particular spend too much time in front of a screen, do not exercise, and are alienated, we are not unique. Forget China. All of Europe, Australia, and Canada have stricter gun control and far, far, far fewer instances of gun related violence as a result. None of these places has BANS on guns. You simply have to jump through more hoops to get one. They are also far more secularized, and still have less murder by guns than the US. Molotov ****tails are used so often in European demonstrations that they are boring. They have never been able to kill more than 3 people at a time, and that was because of the stampede and not the firebomb.

Just so so my position is clear, I do not support across the board weapons bans. People can have guns, but they can have guns the way they do cars. With lisences and education. With background checks. With limits on the amounts of ammo that can be purchased. With the understanding that they will share the liability for crimes committed with their guns unless they are reported as stolen to the police. If the government ever went rouge, I don't care how many assault weapons you have stocked or how much ammo you have buried, you have no way to hold out. A government that can send a drone up the ass of an Al-Quada operative in Pakistan from a computer in Washington is not quaking because someone with a Bible and a bunker has some assault weapons.

How we handle mental illness in this country is piecemeal and half assed and that has to change as well. So I do not want to hear the NRA is crying a river if gun owners are required from here on out to have mental health clearance before issuing lisences. If you have a gun and a mentally ill individual at home, it is your responsibility as a gun owner to secure your weapons or have your assets or estate seized in the event your guns get into the hands of your mentally ill family member. People worry about their sidewalks being cleared of snow so they can't be sued if someone slips, it is not unreasonable for them to have the same dillegence with their firearms.

The problem is multifaceted, but you cannot take guns off the discussion table.

-- Edited by Maribegood on Thursday 17th of January 2013 03:15:55 PM

It really isn't a strawman argument, because a part of doing this sort of thing in the first place is the fame and attention.

I agree that guns have to be on the table. But you can't just make changes to gun laws and expect that suddenly we will have sunshone and roses everywhere. There are a lot of other factors that need settling as well.

ghostmonkey · Guru

Maribegood wrote:
The argument that they can build a bomb or use a car is a strawman. Yes, indeed they can, but they do not. For the most part, guns are used. While I agree we as a society and children in particular spend too much time in front of a screen, do not exercise, and are alienated, we are not unique. Forget China. All of Europe, Australia, and Canada have stricter gun control and far, far, far fewer instances of gun related violence as a result. None of these places has BANS on guns. You simply have to jump through more hoops to get one. They are also far more secularized, and still have less murder by guns than the US. Molotov ****tails are used so often in European demonstrations that they are boring. They have never been able to kill more than 3 people at a time, and that was because of the stampede and not the firebomb.

Just so so my position is clear, I do not support across the board weapons bans. People can have guns, but they can have guns the way they do cars. With lisences and education. With background checks. With limits on the amounts of ammo that can be purchased. With the understanding that they will share the liability for crimes committed with their guns unless they are reported as stolen to the police. If the government ever went rouge, I don't care how many assault weapons you have stocked or how much ammo you have buried, you have no way to hold out. A government that can send a drone up the ass of an Al-Quada operative in Pakistan from a computer in Washington is not quaking because someone with a Bible and a bunker has some assault weapons.

How we handle mental illness in this country is piecemeal and half assed and that has to change as well. So I do not want to hear the NRA is crying a river if gun owners are required from here on out to have mental health clearance before issuing lisences. If you have a gun and a mentally ill individual at home, it is your responsibility as a gun owner to secure your weapons or have your assets or estate seized in the event your guns get into the hands of your mentally ill family member. People worry about their sidewalks being cleared of snow so they can't be sued if someone slips, it is not unreasonable for them to have the same dillegence with their firearms.

The problem is multifaceted, but you cannot take guns off the discussion table.

-- Edited by Maribegood on Thursday 17th of January 2013 03:15:55 PM

Great post, agree completely. Everyone should watch last nights John Srewards show about the ATF. I think a lot has to do with them and the restrictions put on that department and the lack of people in it.

ghostmonkey · Guru

Is this for real?

http://superofficialnews.com/small-town-in-louisiana-arming-its-students-staff-with-hand-guns/

ghostmonkey · Guru

It has to be.

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

Rick Petko weighs in. wink