The Original American Chopper Fan Forum, and the new, and Original Orange County Choppers on CMT Fan Forum

Izzy Ryder · Senior Member

RE: "I'm a Real Life Industrial Designer"....

ghostmonkey · Guru

dahammer_57 wrote:
Izzy Ryder wrote: How are the profits from sales going to be divided if there is no separate company? Do you mean Jr wants to be paid only for his design work and OCC takes over from there? Jr invests only his ..cough... iconic name ...cough... but OCC invests all production costs? That seems fair. And why would buyers call OCC to buy a PJD bike? Anyone that likes PJD would never spend their money at OCC and vice-versa, so realistically, they probably wouldn't sell any bikes anyway even if they formed this mythological new company.
Are you suggesting everytime a design company collaborates with a production company a separate company must be formed? Sheer gibberish. Was a seperate company formed for PJD Coleman grille, PJD Camaro, OCC Lego Toys, OCC Thermos Lunch Box???of course not. If they ever got further along an arrangement for a design liscense would need to be hammered out be it one time use or per unit sold assuming they ever sold anything. Obviously you and I fall firmly on opposite sides of the Sr vs. Jr fence but both their iconic names have done very well for them. Many without such one sided leanings would have seen this if nothing else as a symbolic burying of the hatchet in a long drawn out family fued. Public opinion would have improved for both Senior and Junior. However the Oil/Water - Frog/Scorpion nature of their work dynamic will probally never allow for that. Better no Business together than no family together and I for one am glad they smelled what they were stepping in and moved on.

-- Edited by dahammer_57 on Monday 17th of December 2012 11:30:43 PM

Exactly, well said and agree 100%

Izzy Ryder · Senior Member

Has Jr fully explained the reason he cannot work with Jason anymore? In last night's final episode they showed a scene from the past where Bill Murray visited OCC to review the "Caddy Shack" bike which Jr AND Jason worked TOGETHER on a design. It was a succesful project and they worked beautifully together on this... and many others also. WTF happened to turn Jr off to this kind of design process which worked for him so well in the past? It makes no professional sense at all.

-- Edited by Izzy Ryder on Tuesday 18th of December 2012 03:16:41 PM

-- Edited by Izzy Ryder on Tuesday 18th of December 2012 03:17:52 PM

anotheridiot · Guru

dahammer_57 wrote:
It's quicksand ghost...the more he twists the deeper he sinks. If you say "It's sunny out and the sky is blue" he hears "the sky blew up and It's senior's son's fault". Jr. says " why does my father keep calling this collaboration project a new company?" he hears " Jr. wants a new company with Senior... a new company...a new company...their coming to take me away haha haha hehe hehe

Sr understands the business end, Jr never did. All the complaining thru the years was jr picking and choosing what he wanted to do, which was never run the business end of the company. Sr GAVE jr 20% when they got around to building a structure, he sued him to get back what he gave him. So Steve suggests new company because of all the reasons Izzy wrote after being seeing OCC screwed because structure was put in place last. As soon as rules and regulations were going to be put in place who bailed? Sr builds production bikes, he knows the structure a company needs to sell them, he knows there are EPA guidelines that are in place for a reason. He knows if a bolt breaks and a swingarm falls off the company can be held liable for damages, be forced to do a recall and correct each bike sold. No company the people sue for the personal assets of the responsible parties. Maybe thats why every bike jr ever built is sitting in his shop. Steve and Sr understand the business of bike building. Call it quicksand, I call it blindly following jr.

You kids can go back to playing xbox on monday nights too thinking the old people are the only people to blame. Your generation decides to shoot up schools to get attention.

anotheridiot · Guru

dahammer_57 wrote:
Izzy Ryder wrote: How are the profits from sales going to be divided if there is no separate company? Do you mean Jr wants to be paid only for his design work and OCC takes over from there? Jr invests only his ..cough... iconic name ...cough... but OCC invests all production costs? That seems fair. And why would buyers call OCC to buy a PJD bike? Anyone that likes PJD would never spend their money at OCC and vice-versa, so realistically, they probably wouldn't sell any bikes anyway even if they formed this mythological new company.
Are you suggesting everytime a design company collaborates with a production company a separate company must be formed? Sheer gibberish. Was a seperate company formed for PJD Coleman grille, PJD Camaro, OCC Lego Toys, OCC Thermos Lunch Box???of course not. If they ever got further along an arrangement for a design liscense would need to be hammered out be it one time use or per unit sold assuming they ever sold anything. Obviously you and I fall firmly on opposite sides of the Sr vs. Jr fence but both their iconic names have done very well for them. Many without such one sided leanings would have seen this if nothing else as a symbolic burying of the hatchet in a long drawn out family fued. Public opinion would have improved for both Senior and Junior. However the Oil/Water - Frog/Scorpion nature of their work dynamic will probally never allow for that. Better no Business together than no family together and I for one am glad they smelled what they were stepping in and moved on.

-- Edited by dahammer_57 on Monday 17th of December 2012 11:30:43 PM

LMAO, its pretty funny when you answer your own rant. PJD Coleman Grill is still a Coleman grill, OCC Lego Toys are still Lego toys, OCC Thermos Lunchbox is still a thermos lunchbox, but then you call it an PJD Camaro. Why? It is a Chevrolet Camaro, modified by Trans American Muscle and riveted by PJD. But is it called a Chevy or Trans American Muscle modified camaro, no its called a PJD camaro.

See the difference? when there is toxic poisioning on the legos lego is responsible. Coleman grill falls apart and burns down your house, its colemans responsibility, that is why there is a structure in place and needed when something you build can kill somebody.

jakemac · Senior Member

The thing is - Sr already had the corporate liability issued covered under OCC. Steve put it in his head that he needed a new LLC to work with Jr, but the only paperwork that needed to be worked out was a contract between OCC and PJD clearly stating that PJD would design the bike, and OCC would agree to a licensing agreement to pay a share of the net profit.

I fully understand Sr's desire to have signed paperwork in place before committing to the project. But he moved on to a build way to early. He tried to do both and in the end, got neither.

1Moparsick0 · Senior Member

jakemac wrote:
The thing is - Sr already had the corporate liability issued covered under OCC. Steve put it in his head that he needed a new LLC to work with Jr, but the only paperwork that needed to be worked out was a contract between OCC and PJD clearly stating that PJD would design the bike, and OCC would agree to a licensing agreement to pay a share of the net profit.

I fully understand Sr's desire to have signed paperwork in place before committing to the project. But he moved on to a build way to early. He tried to do both and in the end, got neither.

I honestly think Senior wanted to try to Mirco-Manage Junior again by locking him into a contract, knowing Junior uncomfortableness of being locked into something that he wouldn't agree upon, (like forcing him to work with Jason on doing a 2-D sketch). Possibly it was a way he was hoping THAT Junior would be locked into a contract that wold be a way to sue him back to recover the money he had lost when Junior sued for his value of the shares in O.C.C.. Don't know it never happen so all you can do is speculate.

jakemac · Senior Member

That plan would require Sr to put more thought into it than I would give him credit for. Sr acts more on instinct. He can plan for the short term, but is too impatient to think that far ahead.

ghostmonkey · Guru

anotheridiot wrote:
ghostmonkey wrote:
A more fitting name there has not been. You just cant man up and say you were wrong can you? Jr never mention a new company.
Exactly they didn't even have a name because there was no new company. Yep Jason is a real life industrial designer who cant design in 3D. He's a video game animator, since when does that make someone a real life industrial designer? You'll believe anything. LMAO
I am saying I heard jr mention the new company more than once. I manned up and said I was not about to go search youtube to prove to you when he said it when you are the worlds authority of kissing jr's ass.
When you do rewatch the episodes to see how wrong you are, make sure you listen to when sr is talking to jason and said jr wanted them to design the logo. I am not your secretary, so if you want to listen without your earmuffs on whenever jason or sr speaks, you will figure out you are wrong.
Pot meet kettle, when you see you are wrong, just admit it.

I'm talking about manning up and admitting you were wrong. You said, Jr was the one that kept saying new company. He realized he might lose Vinnie over it so he bailed.

He has been saying new company for the past two months of shows. Where have you been?

You have constantly said that Jr was the one talking about a new company when it was Steve and Sr.

Here we go, watch from 7.50 to 10.15. This is the first time that Sr mentions a new company and Jr was shocked by it.

Now grow a pair and admit you were wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiRjgeXu0FE

AnitaLaLouise · Senior Member

You can't have two companies working together without a contract to clearly state who does what and how they both gain financially from the project. Jr didn't want to sign a contract of any kind, which is when Sr should have told him that they couldn't have a joint venture. It has nothing to do with Sr wanting to control Jr. Had they had a contract, Jr could have completely avoided that last meeting with Jason, because everyone would know without question what their rolls were.

jakemac · Senior Member

I don't think that Jr would have avoided a contract, if that had been brought up in the beginning (which it should have). It was the rush to form a new company that took him aback. And then he felt trapped.

Neither of them should have started building a prototype until it was clear (on paper) to both of them how the arrangement would work.

anotheridiot · Guru

Oh, I think Jr would have avoided the contract. Just like when OCC was turned into a board of directors and Jr and mikey decided they wanted to be independent contractors instead of employees. That allowed them to be compensated for work they did when they decided to show up instead of being expected at work at 7am. It also kept them from getting paid if they were not there, both wanted to be IC's not employees, thats where the business sense showed in jr and mikey.

Sr set up the corporate giving jr 20%
Sr contracted jr as an IC and they fell apart.

No way Steve could advise sr anything other than starting with a contract. Did sr move too quickly, I guess you could say that, but ultimately, by moving ahead, he showed there was no way they could work together and would have had to spend even more to dissolve the partnership. He just allowed his son to make the final decision.

As far as getting things down on paper, thats all sr was trying to do with jason, get the bike down on paper when jr refused to work with him.

ghostmonkey · Guru

anotheridiot wrote:
dahammer_57 wrote:
It's quicksand ghost...the more he twists the deeper he sinks. If you say "It's sunny out and the sky is blue" he hears "the sky blew up and It's senior's son's fault". Jr. says " why does my father keep calling this collaboration project a new company?" he hears " Jr. wants a new company with Senior... a new company...a new company...their coming to take me away haha haha hehe hehe
Sr understands the business end, Jr never did. All the complaining thru the years was jr picking and choosing what he wanted to do, which was never run the business end of the company. Sr GAVE jr 20% when they got around to building a structure, he sued him to get back what he gave him. So Steve suggests new company because of all the reasons Izzy wrote after being seeing OCC screwed because structure was put in place last. As soon as rules and regulations were going to be put in place who bailed? Sr builds production bikes, he knows the structure a company needs to sell them, he knows there are EPA guidelines that are in place for a reason. He knows if a bolt breaks and a swingarm falls off the company can be held liable for damages, be forced to do a recall and correct each bike sold. No company the people sue for the personal assets of the responsible parties. Maybe thats why every bike jr ever built is sitting in his shop. Steve and Sr understand the business of bike building. Call it quicksand, I call it blindly following jr.
You kids can go back to playing xbox on monday nights too thinking the old people are the only people to blame. Your generation decides to shoot up schools to get attention.

So the story changes. Before it was Jr who wanted a new company but now it's Steve because Jr knows nothing about business. ROFLMAO Too funny. No as soon as Jason stuck his big head into the design Jr decided to bail.

Yeah Sr and OCC build production bikes but do they sell any? And what about bikes like the GOW give away bike and the others?

Also how where the first OCC production bikes designed?

Kids???? What a idiotic statement from an idiot.

anotheridiot · Guru

ghostmonkey wrote:
anotheridiot wrote:
dahammer_57 wrote:
It's quicksand ghost...the more he twists the deeper he sinks. If you say "It's sunny out and the sky is blue" he hears "the sky blew up and It's senior's son's fault". Jr. says " why does my father keep calling this collaboration project a new company?" he hears " Jr. wants a new company with Senior... a new company...a new company...their coming to take me away haha haha hehe hehe
Sr understands the business end, Jr never did. All the complaining thru the years was jr picking and choosing what he wanted to do, which was never run the business end of the company. Sr GAVE jr 20% when they got around to building a structure, he sued him to get back what he gave him. So Steve suggests new company because of all the reasons Izzy wrote after being seeing OCC screwed because structure was put in place last. As soon as rules and regulations were going to be put in place who bailed? Sr builds production bikes, he knows the structure a company needs to sell them, he knows there are EPA guidelines that are in place for a reason. He knows if a bolt breaks and a swingarm falls off the company can be held liable for damages, be forced to do a recall and correct each bike sold. No company the people sue for the personal assets of the responsible parties. Maybe thats why every bike jr ever built is sitting in his shop. Steve and Sr understand the business of bike building. Call it quicksand, I call it blindly following jr.
You kids can go back to playing xbox on monday nights too thinking the old people are the only people to blame. Your generation decides to shoot up schools to get attention.
So the story changes. Before it was Jr who wanted a new company but now it's Steve because Jr knows nothing about business. ROFLMAO Too funny. No as soon as Jason stuck his big head into the design Jr decided to bail.
Yeah Sr and OCC build production bikes but do they sell any? And what about bikes like the GOW give away bike and the others?
Also how where the first OCC production bikes designed?
Kids???? What a idiotic statement from an idiot.

You have all the information, why do you ask if OCC builds any production bikes? Dont you know the answer? Mike said the Greenie was their most popular model, a soft tail, which is why sr wanted a soft tail. You can check your sources, but if something is a most popular model, I gotta think that means they sell some.

Jakemac said it was steve, all I know was jr mentioned the company more than once, I have a real job so I cant go back and watch 8 episodes to validate, not that I want to anyway. If Jr was talking to the camera about the "company" he should have put up quotation marks with his multifacetedtalented hands if he was being vague about it. Feel free to come back and let us know you were wrong.

Jason did nothing to the design other than be in the room. Sr told him to draw up some stuff and he didnt. He asked steve what he was supposed to do, design a logo without a name? As soon as jr saw a real life industrial designer in the room, he put his tail between his legs and ran. There was nothing drawn, only prepared to put something down on paper. He ran away pouting like a real businessman should.

ghostmonkey · Guru

anotheridiot wrote:
You have all the information, why do you ask if OCC builds any production bikes? Dont you know the answer? Mike said the Greenie was their most popular model, a soft tail, which is why sr wanted a soft tail. You can check your sources, but if something is a most popular model, I gotta think that means they sell some.
Jakemac said it was steve, all I know was jr mentioned the company more than once, I have a real job so I cant go back and watch 8 episodes to validate, not that I want to anyway. If Jr was talking to the camera about the "company" he should have put up quotation marks with his multifacetedtalented hands if he was being vague about it. Feel free to come back and let us know you were wrong.
Jason did nothing to the design other than be in the room. Sr told him to draw up some stuff and he didnt. He asked steve what he was supposed to do, design a logo without a name? As soon as jr saw a real life industrial designer in the room, he put his tail between his legs and ran. There was nothing drawn, only prepared to put something down on paper. He ran away pouting like a real businessman should.

A more fitting name there has not been. You just cant man up and say you were wrong can you? Jr never mention a new company.

Exactly they didn't even have a name because there was no new company. Yep Jason is a real life industrial designer who cant design in 3D. He's a video game animator, since when does that make someone a real life industrial designer? You'll believe anything. LMAO

anotheridiot · Guru

ghostmonkey wrote:
anotheridiot wrote:
You have all the information, why do you ask if OCC builds any production bikes? Dont you know the answer? Mike said the Greenie was their most popular model, a soft tail, which is why sr wanted a soft tail. You can check your sources, but if something is a most popular model, I gotta think that means they sell some.
Jakemac said it was steve, all I know was jr mentioned the company more than once, I have a real job so I cant go back and watch 8 episodes to validate, not that I want to anyway. If Jr was talking to the camera about the "company" he should have put up quotation marks with his multifacetedtalented hands if he was being vague about it. Feel free to come back and let us know you were wrong.
Jason did nothing to the design other than be in the room. Sr told him to draw up some stuff and he didnt. He asked steve what he was supposed to do, design a logo without a name? As soon as jr saw a real life industrial designer in the room, he put his tail between his legs and ran. There was nothing drawn, only prepared to put something down on paper. He ran away pouting like a real businessman should.
A more fitting name there has not been. You just cant man up and say you were wrong can you? Jr never mention a new company.
Exactly they didn't even have a name because there was no new company. Yep Jason is a real life industrial designer who cant design in 3D. He's a video game animator, since when does that make someone a real life industrial designer? You'll believe anything. LMAO

I am saying I heard jr mention the new company more than once. I manned up and said I was not about to go search youtube to prove to you when he said it when you are the worlds authority of kissing jr's ass.

When you do rewatch the episodes to see how wrong you are, make sure you listen to when sr is talking to jason and said jr wanted them to design the logo. I am not your secretary, so if you want to listen without your earmuffs on whenever jason or sr speaks, you will figure out you are wrong.

Pot meet kettle, when you see you are wrong, just admit it.

SherryRichard · Senior Member

If I remember correctly; after Sr and Jr finished the bike they were building together, they discussed ways in which they could do other things. As a suggestion, Jr said he had a video studio and perhaps they could design a commercial for the OCC cafe, and they left it like that.

The story line made it sound like Sr contacted Jr within a very short time and pitched a production bike Jr could design and OCC could produce. It looked like to me that Jr was taken back because (1) he didn't want to do business with his father; and (2) he was not prepared to do discuss anything with his dad so quickly.

The next thing we know is Sr was seriously pushing Jr to get involved in a new business. The only thing missing from the old Sr was that he stopped bellowing the plant down.

From the onset of the AC shows Jr has confronted his father about the expectation of time Sr places on any particular job. I believe it was the jet bike build where Jr tells his father you don't actually do the work yourself so you have no comprehension how long it takes for parts to be fabricated.

I've seen Sr try and push his crew at OCC to get the work done faster and the crew just laughs it off. If Jr used
the same tactics, Sr would blow a gasket. The fact is Sr was already displaying the same tactics that drove Jr away in the first place. If Sr actually does this in real life, Sr will be constantly estranged from his kids. If it was scripted, then whoever writes the scripts for these shows is in a rut and needs to get out of it. It looked like to me that Sr was trying to force Jr to come back to OCC; and I think Jason saw his prestige at OCC slipping away.

In terms of the logo it looked like that topic was poorly inserted into the story line of the show. Sr gives Jason an impossible task; i.e., design a logo for a company that had no name. Sr was trying with all his might to get Jr sign a contract and this is what leads me to believe it was more important to tie Jr down than to actually start a company. Jr reverted by dealing with his father in a passive-aggressive manner rather than deal with him outwardly by telling his father that he didn't want to sign on for a mutual company. Jr is growing in this area because in the end this is exactly what he did. It just took him some time to deal with his father as a peer instead of a son.

rumple · Senior Member

SherryRichard wrote:
If I remember correctly; after Sr and Jr finished the bike they were building together, they discussed ways in which they could do other things. As a suggestion, Jr said he had a video studio and perhaps they could design a commercial for the OCC cafe, and they left it like that.

The story line made it sound like Sr contacted Jr within a very short time and pitched a production bike Jr could design and OCC could produce. It looked like to me that Jr was taken back because (1) he didn't want to do business with his father; and (2) he was not prepared to do discuss anything with his dad so quickly.

The next thing we know is Sr was seriously pushing Jr to get involved in a new business. The only thing missing from the old Sr was that he stopped bellowing the plant down. ...

Yet it was only a few months ago that Senior and Junior had their first meeting in more than five years (since Paulie got fired, not counting the awkward confrontation during the build off), and what did Senior do first thing afterward? Whine about how Junior only wanted to deal with him in a business context! To Paulie's credit, he immediately met with him again to clarify his position, that they needed to start somewhere...

Next thing you know, it's Senior trying to make the whole thing about business, and doing a piss-poor job of it, too. I guess he wasn't in any hurry to heal the family thing, huh?

rumple · Senior Member

SherryRichard wrote:

...Sr gives Jason an impossible task; i.e., design a logo for a company that had no name.

How about a combination?: "OCD"

Izzy Ryder · Senior Member

Well.. Now that Jr and Sr have finally agreed to not be in any business relationships anymore, and the TV series is over, maybe Jr and Vinny could sign a deal between themselves to create and market a new company called; "PJV-Force Customs".

dahammer_57 · Senior Member

anotheridiot wrote: You kids can go back to playing xbox on monday nights too thinking the old people are the only people to blame. Your generation decides to shoot up schools to get attention.

For shame, for shame. What kind of idiot embarasses his "generation" by dragging the sacred memory of innoccent lives of children lost in a senseless violent act into a discussion about something as trivial as American Chopper??? If one is unable to participate in adult discussions without resorting to such unprincipled behavior I would suggest said individual take up "playing xbox" where transgretions of this nature are more readily overlooked.