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Post Info TOPIC: Wow... that seemed uncomfortable for Vinny


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RE: Wow... that seemed uncomfortable for Vinny
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All this talk about an "Industrial Designer". What other custom chopper builder uses one or drawings of and kind. They all design in their head. Have you ever watched Chica design? Or Matt Hotch? Or Jesse James? Or Arlin Ness?

OCC uses Pohl because Senior is weak and affraid of his customers. When Jesse James started West Coast Choppers he said people give him money and he builds the bike he wants them to have.

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Exactly

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The hardest working person at OCC is the person Jason steals his designs from.

Your just not a bike shop till you start selling Xmas supplies and party decorations.



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SilentBob wrote:

All this talk about an "Industrial Designer". What other custom chopper builder uses one or drawings of and kind. They all design in their head. Have you ever watched Chica design? Or Matt Hotch? Or Jesse James? Or Arlin Ness?

OCC uses Pohl because Senior is weak and affraid of his customers. When Jesse James started West Coast Choppers he said people give him money and he builds the bike he wants them to have.


 You are talking about 4 hands on builders, not someone that has so many other interests that the fabricators get something to have as a template as they are building. 

I'll tell you a great designer, Chip Foose. First thing he does is sketch what he wants the car to look like when its done. Its up to the fabricators to get it there.

I am not saying either is right or wrong, but Jason was brought in to put Jr's ideas on to paper. He was not brought in to replace jr, even though it sure seems like thats the feeling. Jr cannot do what jason does on a computer, so there is animosity between them. I cant say Sr is weak or afraid of his customers. You build for 40 years eventually you have enough problems that its smart business to get signoffs and approvals.

I sure think jr's head fabricator that flies in for the shows would prefer having a sketch so his tanks dont get rejected after he spends two days while jr is not around building them.



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SilentBob wrote:

All this talk about an "Industrial Designer". What other custom chopper builder uses one or drawings of and kind. They all design in their head. Have you ever watched Chica design? Or Matt Hotch? Or Jesse James? Or Arlin Ness?

OCC uses Pohl because Senior is weak and affraid of his customers. When Jesse James started West Coast Choppers he said people give him money and he builds the bike he wants them to have.


 Designing "on the fly" is fine when building a one-off project. But something destined for production of hundreds of copies needs to be fully documented if it's going to be a profitable venture.



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...The hardest working people at PJD are; the T-shirt Guy, Painter, Plater, UPS guy, and now.... the nanny.

"#Where's Paul Jr? - IDK, but he's not on TV"



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Izzy Ryder wrote:
SilentBob wrote:

All this talk about an "Industrial Designer". What other custom chopper builder uses one or drawings of and kind. They all design in their head. Have you ever watched Chica design? Or Matt Hotch? Or Jesse James? Or Arlin Ness?

OCC uses Pohl because Senior is weak and affraid of his customers. When Jesse James started West Coast Choppers he said people give him money and he builds the bike he wants them to have.


 Designing "on the fly" is fine when building a one-off project. But something destined for production of hundreds of copies needs to be fully documented if it's going to be a profitable venture.


 And why cant that happen after they design the bike?



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The hardest working person at OCC is the person Jason steals his designs from.

Your just not a bike shop till you start selling Xmas supplies and party decorations.



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ghostmonkey wrote:
Izzy Ryder wrote:
SilentBob wrote:

All this talk about an "Industrial Designer". What other custom chopper builder uses one or drawings of and kind. They all design in their head. Have you ever watched Chica design? Or Matt Hotch? Or Jesse James? Or Arlin Ness?

OCC uses Pohl because Senior is weak and affraid of his customers. When Jesse James started West Coast Choppers he said people give him money and he builds the bike he wants them to have.


 Designing "on the fly" is fine when building a one-off project. But something destined for production of hundreds of copies needs to be fully documented if it's going to be a profitable venture.


 And why cant that happen after they design the bike?


 Probably to avoid wasting hundreds of man hours by doing things twice for no reason at all..



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Izzy Ryder wrote:

 Probably to avoid wasting hundreds of man hours by doing things twice for no reason at all..


 And how would it waste hundreds of man hours by doing things twice? 



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The hardest working person at OCC is the person Jason steals his designs from.

Your just not a bike shop till you start selling Xmas supplies and party decorations.



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anotheridiot wrote:

I'll tell you a great designer, Chip Foose. First thing he does is sketch what he wants the car to look like when its done. Its up to the fabricators to get it there.

 


 Ahhhh.....you fell right into my trap :) Or not trap so much as you noticed the same thing I did. Yes the non bike builders Foose, Coddington and even Jesse James use conceptual drawings but the question was " What other custom chopper builder uses one or drawings of and kind.?"

Ghost is correct, you do have problems answering simple questions.



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Izzy Ryder wrote:

 Probably to avoid wasting hundreds of man hours by doing things twice for no reason at all..


 Good try, but nope. That position is used to optimize production product. Custom items are free flowing in design and to attempt to constrain or micro manage it cripples the process. I guess I should add "In my opinion".



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SilentBob wrote:
Izzy Ryder wrote:

 Probably to avoid wasting hundreds of man hours by doing things twice for no reason at all..


 Good try, but nope. That position is used to optimize production product. Custom items are free flowing in design and to attempt to constrain or micro manage it cripples the process. I guess I should add "In my opinion".


 Right, that's what I was talking about. Optimizing production.



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...The hardest working people at PJD are; the T-shirt Guy, Painter, Plater, UPS guy, and now.... the nanny.

"#Where's Paul Jr? - IDK, but he's not on TV"



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Izzy Ryder wrote:

 Right, that's what I was talking about. Optimizing production.


 Well I'm sorry I got in on this thread then. I thought it was concerning using an "Industrial Designer" on one off theam bikes. Of course for OCC's production bikes there is a real need for one. My mistake cry



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Rick had no problem working with Jr after Vin left OCC. They had been working as a team of 3 for some time! That is one of the things I noticed when initially Brendan had trouble working with Jr because of the lack of plans. However, he caught on really fast. As far as Jr's employee's having to redo something; as long as they get paid what does it matter?

As we all saw, Jr's shop was getting filled up with bikes. I'm wondering if some of the companies left their bikes with Jr until they were taken on the road for some company event; or until they were auctioned off. It might be a good way for Jr to build up a PJD display of bikes.

Sr didn't really change; he may or may not have changed yelling at his sons or modified his grievances toward them in camera range but basically he didn't change. Changing that type of behavior is a hard thing to do and I don't think it happens overnight unless someone has a "come to Jesus" experience. The reason why I think like this is because of Sr pushing that shared project. He started dissing Jr about not meeting and being not available. I remember when Jr tried to work as a consultant and he would be on the phone about his disigning business, Sr would throw a fit about his not being totally committed to OCC! Consultants don't usually perform the work (otherwise they wouldn't be a consultant), they tell their client how to do it. You could tell Jr didn't want to get involved with his dad again but he was handling it incorrectly. He reverted back to just not doing anything about it instead of just telling his dad he didn't want to do it. I think that with time and space between the two, Jr will learn. I know he was fearful that it would ruin the progress they had made but he will find that if his dad can't accept the word no from him there isn't much chance of a meaningful relationship. And I don't know if it was scripted or not but (in the end) his dad did accept the fact he didn't want to work with him.

And here is the dilemma not everybody works on the same time line. His dad wanted to start immediately and Jr wanted to find out if there was any chance they could work together. I think that people with any maturity would say no. I think we had said so on both the original forum and on this one. The prelalent reason is that not enough time had elapsed since they went their own ways and an attempt at reuniting would have brought about the same conditions that caused them to split. Sr would have felt that "he did it all" and Jr did nothing. I think that most people on the old forum was aghast when they heard Sr made such a claim.

Sr had an eye for old choppers that were popular in his day but that is about all. He did not have design skills and that is why he chose Jason. He had a guy who had worked with Jr and would play to his ego because he wanted to be the "designer." It might have worked out for Sr if he had any design skills because he could have worked with Jason as Jr did. However, Sr didn't have the skill set to guide Jason. And even when he had a guy (the painter) that did a credible design for the Make a Wish Foundation Sr pretty much destroyed the design. Every time they had an in-house bike build off between Jr and Sr; Jr won. And they had outside voting on at least one of these build offs. And as we saw during the last shows Jr's bike was the better bike by far. But instead of being proud of their kid's ability and realize that it wasn't his (Sr's) trait, Sr got jealous of Jr. And throughout this whole show that was the problem. He would see the ability of Jr getting along with the guys and Sr had to come out and throw a tantrum in order to get attention.

And everytime Vinnie described the situation at OCC that made him uncomfortable a black and white screen would play Sr yelling at Jr or starting a fight or acting out in some way. Whatever other problems Vinnie had I don't believe there was ever a problem between Vinnie and Jr. No they didn't see each other often after Vinnie quit but Vinnie was starting his business and there was no reason to see each other often. It didn't mean they weren't friends! Frankly I always thought when Sr was pushing at Vinnie that Jr probably would have made it worse it he did stand up for Vinnie and I think Jr knew it too and so did Vinnie.

And here is another thought. Jr's supervisory role was polar opposite to his dad. He developed a team, his dad was always swaggering about telling everybody he was boss. Whether Jr always felt this way or whether it came with maturity I doubt we will ever know. He shared the limelight with his team. He bragged about his team! It was never about Jr no matter how much people wanted to believe this. Yes, he was their boss! He paid them money to do their jobs! And ultimately the boss needs to make the final decision. He didn't have to share the limelight but he did.

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